[SIEGE of ORGRIMMAR] - Garrosh Hellscream (14)

[Wolphie]

Two weeks ago, some things were suggested and they remained "nailed" in the general strategy, especially in the run which finished with Garrosh's death. We simply do not follow those, ergo we die relentless.

After 138 personal wipes, I think I can point out what is wrong and when it happens. I studied also the logs for a better understanding of the fight.

Main reasons for general wipes - which occur in ph. 1, 2, 3 and, if it is the case, in intermissions:

- silly deaths - phases or intermissions... this raid or any other raid... silly deaths are a wipe for the whole raid. In this case, it happens mostly in intermissions. Don't have the debuff? STOP the dps and focus on you staying alive. It's not the 30 s of dps which will get Garrosh down. I will come back to this.

- AoE - our nr. 1, and nr. 2 and nr. 3 aso reason of wiping. In ALL the phases. And I will point out why.

What decides the length of each and every phase is Boss' health. Each time G. gets down to 45 M in ph. 1, 117 M in ph. 2, we go in intermission and adds / whirling / MC'ed no longer occur. AoE is NOT getting Garrosh down efficiently. Single target nuking does. More Garrosh lives, more events occur and we die. It is proven. We can't survive too many waves of bad things. When we took Garrosh down, we skipped one Iron Star on each and every try in phase 1. Because of single targetting and IGNORING the adds. And of course, because of respecting the thumb rule: wheel has to squish adds. Adds survive, it's wasted dps, which translates in dps taken from the boss = longer phase etc, etc. Words like "stop dps'ing the boss" shouldn't be heared. Some adds survive phase 1? So what? We come back from intermission, they are as good as dead. But letting Garrosh untouched and just aoe-ing the adds, therefore risking another wave to come, is wrong. Relying on the cloak procs to finish adds is wrong too. VERY IMPORTANT! After Garrosh is brought to 10%, he heals to 1170 M or so, but STILL is exposed to our dps. Those seconds of nuking, before entering the intermission, are crucial, and can make the difference of victory / failure... Remember the wipes on 0%, 1% aso? it is a matter of a few millions of hp...

Phase 2: we hurry in intermissions and Garrosh doesn't get energy. Good thing, and it is exactly this which made us to avoid him getting over 50 energy (that is, to go in the 3rd intermission). If we nuke Garrosh as it should in ph. 2, we can as well walk backwards in intermissions with adds, as long as G. doesn't get more than 25 energy / round. Because if 3 intermissions occur = Garrosh gets over 50 energy, it will be empowered MC'ed and almost a 100% wipe. Little Minions appear after intermission 2? Do not Aoe! They are a priority, yes, but DON'T YOU FORGET to nuke boss, as he will cast more whirling, more minions will come, usually EXACTLY before going into intermission. And they will be on the ground, waiting for us, for when we come back. OK, we reached to bring Garrosh to 117M. A few errant adds may be arround, who cares. Garrosh starts transforming and getting into phase 3. NEVER, EVER stop DPS the Boss!!! I don't know how to stress this more. DO NOT STOP DPS-ing THE BOSS. How much we get him down plus an extra 20% is what the boss will start phase 3.

This is the burn phase, and by burn means NUKE boss. No AoE whatsoever. Interrupt / kill our MC'ed colleagues, and DO NOT STOP for a second in nuking! We will be surrounded by loads of adds, healers will get muscular cramps healing, but boss will go down.

After so many attempts, I think I can post here, the "The Garrosh Hellscream's health pool and timing guide for normal 25 man raid":

phase 1: starts at 450 M, finishes at 45M. Only 2 Iron Stars allowed, nuke boss until 45 M. Adds needs to die by the wheel. No excuses whatsoever for NOT dpsing boss and AoE. Boss heals to 1170 M, and will be still exposed to our dps. Phase successful closed if boss is under 1100 M when we go up. Anything over 1100 M means more difficulties and eventually failure.

INTERMISSIONS: STAY ALIVE! you die, we lose dps, boss lives longer, more adds etc... battle ressing you is not solving the problem, at the best we have a weak extra shot in a prolonged phase. Nuking Boss there isn't that important - well, it is, but compared to you staying alive, it's nothing - and being on constant move, you won't get the perfect dps on the boss. That perfect dps should be provided when really needed.

phase 2: 1st intermission is until the boss is around 750 M. Then intermission, when boss gets something like 14 / 15 (best case) or more energy. Stay alive up there, come back and NUKE. Boss has no empowered abilities yet. Boss has to go UNDER 400 M when we are taken up for the next intermission. Boss will get back on the ground from this new intermission with over 25 energy, so, when we get back on the ground, NUKE. Boss has to have now 370 or less M of health. Now we have the empowered whirlies -> minions of Sha. No AoE. This phase, from ~370 M to 117 M, we can't afford too many waves of empowered whirlies. And when boss gets close to 117 M, that is end of phase two, under no excuse DO NOT STOP dps on the boss. Boss gets to 117 M, he transforms. DO NOT STOP DPS. It will lower boss' health a lot. Every million we take from him now is crucial, as it will add to the 20% he gains with phase 3. Boss Health Pool at the beginning of phase 3? 270M. Everything over this, means big problems for us.

There would be many other things I would like to add, but I already wrote lots. I do believe that if we respect the above, we will have Garrosh dead in each and every run. I wish to all of us only the best inspiration and focus in this fight as well as for the next ones.


P.S. Didn't pay too much attention to desecrated weapons. In the beginning, I wrote weapons should be a priority... it was decided that only one or two players should be on those. I didn't hear yesterday any indications if we all have to shoot the weapon, or only one, several or else. So I shot it only if it was very next to my spot

[Rublupine]

Hi Wolphie. Generally your numbers are right (not sure on the way you descibed P3 bit though). When i play I only really watch for he 2nd transition in phase 2,t the right benchmark for Garrosh's health there is 400M HP going into the Sha realm. This makes the final section before P3 far more manageable. I also agree with the principles that you described re single target and survival.

However, and please think about this, I strongly disagree with what you have said on DPS to Garrosh and how the raid should behave. If you are asked to stop DPS then there is a reason. This fight does not have a hard enrage and timings are subjective. As long as you are handling the transitions and avoiding the 50% empowered then all bets are off, the RL can/should call to stop DPS

P1

I don't care when he dies, yes people should single target on Garrosh and then hit adds if needed to get them down. There are no issues with having 2 or 3 Wild stars. There is no emphasis on when he needs to go down in P1. Yes, quicker is better (single target), and yes padding the meters is poitnless (aoe). However, as long as the phase is controlled its not material in any way. Worst thing in this phase is having too many adds up, that kills tanks and that wipes us. So, if we need aoe then we need aoe. This is a judgement call and its obvious when we have 6+ adds up to aoe down. Don't tell people differently. The RL or a tank will call if aoe is needed.

P2

All ranged should prioritize the desecrated weapon when it is up, and that really means hitting with dots. If more than 1 weapon is up I would gladly see people using single target to clear them up We need space to move and play. Movement and positioning matter. If weapons are up when we go to transition its harder when we come back. I'd gladly take a clean room over an extra 10M HP off Garrosh.

Same applies to the small adds, ranged and Melee must prioritize these over Garrosh.

As for stopping DPS on Garrosh, YES it can be necessary. We would rather have the room clear if possible when we hit P3 transition. The limiting factor is to avoid a 3rd Sha realm, if we need to handle 2 or 3 sets of Sha adds before P3, so be it. The distinction is that 3 Sha realms is bad (that means 50% empowered) but stopping DPS on Garrosh at 13% to ensure the room is clean at P3 transition is just a better way to play. The RL won't call to stop DPS on Garosh if we are seconds fro a realm phase, they will call to stop DPS if we are about to hit P3 with needless adds up. Adds up when we hit P3 is a burden, they start getting empowered sooner than we need and that overwhelms the tanks and raid quicker

P3

A perfect transition means ranged should be spread (same as P2) and all raid single targeting Garrosh, no adds up. Heroism comes the second he restores health to 25%

As I understand it, he will heal to 25% health, he'll heal to 25% if we have him at 1% and he'll heal to 25% if we have him at 9%. In other words, DPS is only of benefit once he transforms. Heroism should be popped as soon as his health jumps up, or maybe a few seconds before. Any earlier is just wasting DPS.

[Alaedon]

As I understand it, he will heal to 25% health, he'll heal to 25% if we have him at 1% and he'll heal to 25% if we have him at 9%.

Again Brain you got it this part wrong ... Boss go to phase 3 when he hit 10% ..and he heal 20% plus whatever remain of the 10% so if we nuke 9% then the boss will have 21% not 25% like you think

[politrika]

Thank you for the very thorough and concise log analysis, guys. Thank you especially Rubs, for pointing out exactly what the faults were. Raiders please look at these stats and try to work on your mistakes. Also thank you Pinky!

[Wolphie]

Adds and boss abilities are cast roughly each 35 sec. Stop dps on Boss to get rid of the little adds may very well end in killing those little adds while having another bunch of them freshly spawned. And where this is best seen it is just before boss gets at the end of phase 2... empowered whirling is cast and we have a new pack of minions left on the ground exactly before boss transforms. Finally, the reason I invited to dps was not the fear of hitting the enrage timer but avoiding extra waves of adds / abilities... which happen exactly because we do not hit boss and we are killing the older adds aso... somehow a vicious circle... and I believe you are right too, Alaedon, with the ph. 2 -> ph. 3 transition and boss health.

[politrika]

Adds and boss abilities are cast roughly each 35 sec. Stop dps on Boss to get rid of the little adds may very well end in killing those little adds while having another bunch of them freshly spawned. And where this is best seen it is just before boss gets at the end of phase 2... empowered whirling is cast and we have a new pack of minions left on the ground exactly before boss transforms. Finally, the reason I invited to dps was not the fear of hitting the enrage timer but avoiding extra waves of adds / abilities... which happen exactly because we do not hit boss and we are killing the older adds aso... somehow a vicious circle... and I believe you are right too, Alaedon, with the ph. 2 -> ph. 3 transition and boss health.

As RL we always try to avoid an extra wave of ads, but until dem dps-ers burn the ads harder, we just have to stop dps on Garrosh. Just trust the RL-ers to be calling the right thing and focus on your individual tasks, everyone. There are half a dozen ppl in the leading channel who are watching these exact things & timers. Sometimes the dps aren't good enough to kill off the ads. Thus we have to stop and push when we are clear of ads.

[politrika]

To conclude: we pop hero as soon as he starts transforming. We get 15 secs of free nuking. Pop EVERYTHING then. Otherwise, P3: intrerupt MC-ed ppl, kill them one by one, aoe as little as possible = win. Do this even at 1% or we won't get the kill. Drill it into your heads.

[Wolphie]

Well, if you stop and listen to everybody, you will hear only: "I didn't do anything wrong" and "oh... that was an accident / mistake / lag spike / bug etc." But we are getting close to 140 wipes on the same boss.

Just trust the RL-ers to be calling the right thing and focus on your individual tasks, everyone.

No one is above mistakes. This is why the forum exists, to point out our personal opinions, opinions which are not supposed to cluster the raid chat. If I wouldn't trust the raid leaders, I wouldn't be participating to raids. But I did participate to ALL raids, I didn't miss a single one. That shows some trust, I suppose. And by the way, focusing on RL tasks (also helped by a

half a dozen ppl in the leading channel who are watching these exact things & timers

is not, in my humble opinion, an excuse for silly death. We, normal raiders, are to be blamed for our mistakes, but that should be applied to all.

[Rublupine]

Can someone point to concrete evidence regarding Garrosh's health for P3. Nothing anecdotal. Preferably a video that clearly shows his health above or below 25% at the time of the change?

The wording in the raid journal specifically describes it as health 25%, not x% + y%.

Note, P1 to P2 transition ihe restores to 100%, not x% + 90%. The reason his health is lower after he transforms is because the DPS on him counts once he hits 100%. I see him at 1 or 2 % and then back up full. The same applies in P2 to P3 transition.

This is a fundamental issue and I think the raid is divided over how this mechanic behaves. It basically dictates when we use Hero and it will probably be the difference to a 1% wipe vs a kill.

[politrika]

And by the way, focusing on RL tasks (also helped by a

half a dozen ppl in the leading channel who are watching these exact things & timers

is not, in my humble opinion, an excuse for silly death. We, normal raiders, are to be blamed for our mistakes, but that should be applied to all.

You forget I also asked to be numptied when I made silly mistakes. Everyone is bound by the same rules. And I almost always point out publicly where I mistake, whether I lead or not, but you don't know me for that long to make any judgements on that

To answer Rub's question (from Tankspot):
"So as I said, you push Garrosh down to 10% in phase 2 with some intermissions laced in and then he heals back up 20% of his health. Note I didn't say he heals back up to 20%. So if you dps him a bunch past 10% and he ends up at 5% before he heals, he'll be at 25% once he finishes his little RP. So keep dpsing him hard here, don't let up!"

Link here: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php? ... Hellscream